Deafening Sound Call-in Program
from Tuesday, Nov. 21, at 8 p.m. (7 MT)

(This transcript is provided in unedited form, just as it was presented in captioned form during the program. Changes of speaker or major change of scene are indicated with double "greater than" signs, like this: >>)

>> Good evening, everyone, I'm Carol Schrader. Tonight Nebraska ETV presents special programming about a subject that affects all of us. Noise-induced hearing loss is an increasing cause of deafness and tinnitus among Nebraskans of all ages. It is caused by exposure to loud noise. It is avoidable.

"Deafening Sound" is a 60-minute documentary about the way exposure to even short blasts of loud noise permanently damages our hearing. We will follow that with a 30-minute call-in special in which you can ask questions of a panel of experts on hearing loss. The phone numbers are in Lincoln, 472-1212. Outside of Lincoln, 1-800-676-5446. And via TTY, the number is 1-877-837-4481. We will repeat those numbers again after the documentary.

We want to tell you that Nebraska ETV created two additional resources about hearing loss due to excessive noise. You will find one on our web site at net.unl.edu. There's a story on the front page. Click on that to get to the material which includes not only segments from the show but additional information about ear plugs and support groups.

The other is a resource packet you can get here at Nebraska ETV. It is filled with educational material from various associations. A list of numerous organizations that deal with hearing issues and a free set of ear plugs. We will have the address for you later during the call-in special. First, "Deafening Sound."

>> You might be interested to know that chain saws and power tools typically run at 100 decibels. Moderate rainfall at 50 decibels. A refrigerator hums at 40 dB. Rice Krispies snap, crackle, and pop at 30 dB. For more information about noise-induced hearing loss, NETV has put together a packet of materials that you can order. It contains lists of materials, books, posters, and videos that are available, the names and addresses of numerous organizations that deal with noise-induced hearing loss, and a free set of ear plugs. The packet is free. Write to Deafening Sound, c/o NETV, P.O. box 83111, Lincoln, ne 68501. Or e-mail your request to dm@unl.edu. We have also produced an extensive web site with more information on noise-induced hearing loss. Look for it at NETV's web site. It's easy to remember. Net.unl.edu. Click on the story on the home page and plan to spend some time at the site.

We need to break away for a station identification but now is the time to start calling in those questions about tonight's show or about noise-induced hearing loss in general. We have an outstanding group of hearing and communication experts answering our phones. In the studio tonight, Dr. Patrick Brookhouser of the boys town national research hospital, professor Kenya Taylorof the university of Nebraska at Kearney, and Kathy Peck of H.E.A.R. in san francisco. They will answer your questions.

The phone numbers, if you are calling from Lincoln, the number is 472-1212. From anywhere else in Nebraska, 1-800-676-5446. And by tty, the number is 1-877-837-4481. Again, from Lincoln, 472-1212. In Nebraska outside of Lincoln, 1-800-676-5446. And by tty, the number is 1-877-837-4481. We will be right back.

>> Welcome back to "Deafening Sound," the call-in special. I'm Carol Schrader. We are talking tonight about noise of induced hearing loss. It's something that can affect everyone, from babies to adults. It does not take much exposure to become permanent if the level of noise is high enough.

To answer your questions tonight, we have three experts in our studio.

Dr. Patrick Brookhouser is director of boys town national research hospital in omaha. You just saw Dr. Brookhouser in the "Deafening Sound" documentary.

Professor Kenya Taylor is head of the communication disorders department at the university of Nebraska-Kearney. Professor taylor specializes in agriculture-related hearing loss and was featured in a story on "statewide" that was part of an outreach effort by Nebraska ETV and Nebraska public radio on hearing loss.

And also with us tonight is Kathy Peck, a former musician and is now executive director of H.E.A.R. based in san francisco. Kathy, you were part of the "Deafening Sound" documentary tonight.

The big deal here is if you have a question about noise-induced hearing loss for our panel, don't wait to call. Go to the phone quick and then you can hear the rest of the show. In Lincoln, the number is 472-1212. In the rest of Nebraska, call 1-800-676-5446. And by tty, the number is 1-877-837-4481. Again, real quickly, those phone numbers in Lincoln, 472-1212. The rest of Nebraska, 1-800-676-5446. And the tty number is 1-877-837-4481.

We have to start with someone so we're going to start with Dr. Brookhouser. You have been doing a lot of research at boys town on hearing loss particularly in children. That's what you specialize in. I suppose you could go on for hours about it. Is there anything that would shock us or surprised you?

>> Well, I think the thing that surprised us was how young children are that are affected by noise-induced hearing loss. Since this is a permanent type loss, you really have lost something you will never get back. I think most parents are not aware of the sound sources in the home environment that have potentially hazardous noise levels. I think the idea we need to protect our kids against environmental hazards now extends to noise because of the ability to amplify noise with electronics to the point that it is potentially injurious.

>> I have seen kids at concerts, little bitty kids with earmuffs. The heavy duty ear protection. If you choose to take your child to one --

>> If your child can say "mommy, it's too loud." If they can't talk about how loud it is, they should stay home with grandma. That's the best ear protection. The infants -- used to see them at the grateful dead shows taking tiny babies on your shoulder right near the speakers. You know, no. There is really not any hearing protection designed for these babies either.

>> That's interesting.

>> I would say the best hearing protection is auntie or grandma.

>> The other end of the spectrum, not that farmers are at the other end of the age spectrum, but the ones that are probably realizing what they lost are towards the other end of the spectrum. This is an astronomical problem in Nebraska for a segment of the population.

>> It's unbelievable. The thing that is so astronomical about it is that it stretches from the entire spectrum of ages. Certainly the people who have been working in agriculture for the longest period of time, those people in their 50's and 60's have a greater degree of hearing loss. We're finding significant hearing loss in people under 20 if raised on a farm and work in agricultural-related jobs.

>> We have a lot of questions on tinnitus. We will get to them. The majority of them are on that. You were going to say, Dr. Brookhouser?

>> I was going to say we make such a thing over proper strapping of kids in a car seat. If you put a child in a car seat and then turn on a stereo at a boom car level, you are doing significant damage to that child's health, almost to the point of neglect if you don't protect the child's ears against hearing loss. It is an important thing to think about. If you are going to crank the stereo up and put the baby in the car, you better be careful.

>> It's one of the things that we in Nebraska don't want rules and regulations to run our lives. But sometimes good sense has to play a major part. But we're not raised to do that. I wanted to show you -- my husband is a firefighter who has suffered hearing loss. These are earmuffs. They are what he wears when he's on the riding lawn mower. He insists our 16-year-old son wear them. He knows firsthand what it is like. Is that important for just the day-to-day stuff around the house with the noisy tools?

>> Very much so.

>> Definitely. It's amazing how many tools around the house, particularly yard work tools, have the potential to do damage in a short period of time.

>> It doesn't have to be rock music per se, right, Kathy?

>> No, it doesn't.

>> We will get to some of the questions. I think this one could affect everyone. How far from the noise do you need to be before you don't need to wear ear plugs? The example given by the caller is a racetrack. I assume they mean car racing or drag racing or something like that. I guess you need to have one of those little detectors.

>> You need to measure the intensity of the loudness of the sound and the amount of exposure you are going to have to it. You can be exposed for short periods of time but if someone is working in a pit at a race car track so they're hearing that all day long, they're exposed to tremendous amounts of sound.

>> If you have to shout to the person next to you, it's too loud.

>> That's excellent from my concert-going days in my youth. That's a good test.

>> I have done a lot of work with the railroads. They measure for each person's job on the rail. If it's a brakeman, the engineer. They measure so it's important where you are and the amount of exposure you are getting.

>> In general if you come out of a sound exposure situation and have sort of a stuffy, clogged sensation in your ears --

>> or you want to pop your ears.

>> And your ears are ringing, that's an indication you were exposed to sound that is potentially injurious if you're exposed to it over a longer period of time.

>> Let's talk about ringing because we're getting a lot of questions about that. Boy, we are getting some terrific questions. Is tinnitus associated with migraines?

>> Well, you can have a number of different things. Tinnitus, to define it for people, is a sound you hear in the absence of an external sound source. It's like seeing spots before your eyes or flashes of light before your eyes. You're seeing something that you appreciate as a visual stimulus but there's nothing there. Many different things can make tinnitus worse. One thing that makes it worse in some individuals is a constriction of blood vessels. If you take stimulants of one kind or another -- caffeine, nicotine -- those kinds of things can make tinnitus worse. It's conceivable that someone with migraine could have tinnitus as the prodromes, for example. Many people have visual hallucinations or visual kinds of things. You can have something with your ears as well.

>> Interesting. This is from a man -- or maybe a woman who says his or her ears were damaged by an explosion back in 1970. How does tinnitus bring on severe depression? Obviously he is suffering -- he/she is suffering from that. We had another question about the long term effects of working in noise. Let's talk about the two aspects. Noise does affect you and not just your hearing mechanism.

>> It causes stress. You have to try to work in the noise, communicate in the noise, and focus on other things. That becomes very stressful if you are doing that in the presence of noise. Same with tinnitus. You have to try to step outside so to speak listening to that tinnitus and be able to focus on other things. It becomes very stressful over a period of time and could lead to depression.

>> You have suffered from that, right?

>> Yes.

>> When you first realized as a rock musician, as we saw in the documentary, that you had it, I assume anything that takes something away from you whether it's your job or spouse or hearing that depression can set in from that in and of itself.

>> Very much so. The artists are dealing with their careers and their ego. They want to know if this is permanent, is it going to stop. There's a lot of -- there's been a lot of research done and some improvement and headway in a lot of the relief therapies but there is still no cure. What I believe is the best cure is the prevention, is to prevent it. To contact your health professional and the organizations and audiologists and ear, nose, and throat doctors. Seek help, seek a professional for help if you feel you are having this problem ongoing.

>> When you talk about the psychological stress of tinnitus, if you think about it, many of us are in very loud situations and you think if I could just have a little peace and quiet and get away from this. When you turn the radio off, you get nice peace and quiet. People with tinnitus can't get away from it. That's the most depressing thing. They can't escape the stimulus in their ear. It becomes bothersome to sleep. It actually has driven some people to suicide. Some people have committed suicide because they just can't get rid of what they call head noise which in many cases is tinnitus.

>> Regarding tinnitus, a patient wants to know can medication help my tinnitus?

>> Well, there are many different medications that have been used for tinnitus. In fact, we don't totally understand why tinnitus occurs. It's probably due to damage of the sensitive inner ear hair cells. Sort of like the retina of the ear. If you look long enough at an eclipse of the sun, you are warned not to look at it for fear of burning the retina to the point of having permanent visual loss. Something happens to cause the cells to fire off when there is no background sound. Medications used in many cases have been anti-depressants to help people cope with it. They may break down the transmission of the tinnitus into the brain. In many cases it's a major help in helping people overcome it. Relatively low doses. We're not talking about high doses. That's one thing used. Avoiding stimulants because they tend to make it worse.

>> We are getting tons of phone calls. Great response, everyone. We're going to talk about different ear plugs and things. I do want to talk a bit more about the farmers. The amazing thing was the testing that you did at the husker harvest days showed -- you said you expected 28% of the people would by a certain point of their life have hearing loss and 78%?

>> What we saw in a population of that range of people not necessarily working in a noisy environment, you would expect about 28% of the number of people we tested to have some hearing loss. 68-78% of the people we tested over a four-year period had significant noise-induced hearing loss due to exposure.

>> In the "statewide" production, they talked about your people handing out ear plugs to the younger people and they said they would use them for the races like drag races. Are you reaching fertile ground in the agricultural community with your message?

>> I don't know. One of the things that I really think we have to do now is target on the younger population because what we hear so much from the older people or the adults is I live on a farm, I'm going to have a hearing loss, this is what I expect to have happen and there's not anything to do about it.

>> They also didn't have boom boxes and blasters in their car. You have this cumulative layer effect.

>> They think if they have modern equipment that -- like the newer tractors with the cab that they're safe. That's not necessarily true. If they put the windows down, if they play the radio, if they run the air conditioner, all those things add noise and the cumulative effect adds up and they have damage.

>> Here is a couple from a different point of view with regard to the music in say an auditorium. One person is a musician who wants to know what to discuss with your sound man in terms of reducing the most harmful frequencies? Is there anything that can be done in that regard?

>> I think it's kind of a myth. It's not necessarily the frequencies, it's the intensity of the sound, when things are too loud. What I suggest -- I will go into another aspect -- is self protection. Protect yourself. There's musicians' ear plugs available. There's baffles. The acoustics of how you are set up on stage.

>> Where the speakers are.

>> Where you are standing. Now they have in-ear monitors that actually -- ok, it is at the ear so you have to have someone sharp on the monitoring board to watch the levels but it also gets rid of the wedges in the front so you have no amps on stage.

>> Which was the standards for years and years and years.

>> So you can actually hear yourself sing. You're not shouting.

>> One of the things about frequencies though are the first sounds, the first tones you tend to lose in terms of hearing loss tend to be higher frequency sounds.

>> They pump those up sometimes so you can hear your female background singers or higher instruments. Then it's a double whammy then.

>> It is. The unfortunate part is in the english language, many of the higher pitch sounds are the consonant sounds like s, th, ch that allow you to hear what a word is. People will say I hear you talking but I couldn't make out if you said search or church or perch or what you said. That's what they lose. Now today the real danger of kids losing their hearing, if anything we're more dependent on communication skills in the job market. So many jobs revolve around your ability to listen and transmit information. If you can't hear properly, you are at a disadvantage.

>> You are a sender and a receiver.

One of the problems with noise-induced hearing loss is it affects the higher frequencies first. You still have fairly normal hearing in the middle frequencies and low frequencies so you hear things but you don't necessarily always understand them so clearly. By the time a person notices that they're having a hearing problem, they have done significant damage.

>> Right. I have another -- we have tons of questions. This is from entertainment noise from a different perspective. A person wants to know an effective strategy for patrons to let their feelings be known about too much intensity. Artists control the volume. How can patrons get sound levels reduced?

>> Go to the sound person and talk to the club owners, talk to the bands and say, you know, the reason no one is standing at the front of the stage is because it's too loud and people are actually leaving. Some of these artists they're used to playing big auditoriums where it's open air and the sound can go out. Then they get off the road and they will play a smaller club and you're not playing in the coliseum, I'm sorry, it's a smaller club. Complain.

>> Do they routinely use meters?

>> Some do. Some don't. Osha does not regulate the sound in the club. They are more for the employee and so it has to be a complaint from an employee.

>> An employee could complain?

>> People talk about the musicians and indeed they're exposed to the sound but the employees, waiters and waitresses and bartenders and people that are in the club, are exposed day after day to sound levels much above what they should be listening to. They're not covered because of the small number of employees in a club usually. They can complain. I think they should. They can wear ear plugs, too.

>> I just want to add something really quick. The d.j.'s -- it's not just live music, it's recording music, too. There's a myth that it is recorded in the subsounds that the d.j.'s come with. Even though it's a low frequency, there are not studies about what the low frequencies do. They're subsonic frequencies. It's the intensity I have to say again that we are too loud and we need to protect our hearing.

>> Sharon in omaha wanted to know who you call if you are an employee wanting to complain about an employer in terms of just uncomfortable levels and that can be in a variety of jobs. Almost any job can have too noisy of an environment. Who do you call?

>> The group that oversees workplace hazards is osha. Occupational safety and health. If you have relatively few employees, those employer groups are not covered by osha. I think the cutoff is 25 employees now. Once you are in an environment where you have a minimum number of employees and have potentially hazardous sound levels, you are obligated by law to institute a hearing conservation program where they need to check the hearing of the employees and instruct them how to protect their hearing in the environment. People on the farm need to do that for themselves obviously.

>> We have a man in Kearney where you are from. He says sound ordinance laws, they're an invasion of personal rights. There are a lot of cities that have some sort of noise ordinance. Are they really meant to help save your hearing or really meant to just help people from -- keep people from murdering their neighbors?

>> Exactly. They're protection for the people who live in the city. Disturbance.

>> More of an annoyance kind of thing.

>> That's what they're put in place for. I look at them differently. When one was recently passed in Kearney, I cheered because of the noise and the potential damage to the people with stereos. They were actually passed so that people would not be disturbed.

>> Should young children be allowed to go to movie theaters with all the dolby and the sound dancing around the room in sometimes loud --

>> There's no question that modern sound -- electronic sound systems in movie theaters are able to blast very loud sounds. Unfortunately a lot of the movie makers feel if they don't have a tremendously powerful soundtrack behind the movies that they won't lure in the young attendees. Among other things, one of the simplest things to put in your ears apart from regular noise protection plugs which you ought to have, but it's not a bad idea to carry some cotton in your pocket that you can slip in if you get into an area where you've got some sound exposure but not very, very loud prolonged exposure. That can help shelter your ears or protect your ears a little bit. I think there is a hazard if you stay in the theater long enough and they really blast.

>> This is a term I don't know if I'm saying it right so bear with me. How do you treat hyperacusis? What help is available? I have never heard of that. Is that everything is loud and very sensitive?

>> I would like you to speak on it. This is something that is happening to musicians as well. Not just hearing loss in the ringing but oversensitivity to sound. Your headsets, various musicians have to wear those just to do the dishes. It's very tough.

>> There is no real treatment. Some of the hyperacusis I think is a phenomenon called recruitment where an injured ear becomes much more sensitive to slight increases in sound so an increase in sound level that you and I would find tolerable, they find intolerable. That may be an indication of damage. The best way to at least protect yourself from the discomfort of hyperacusis which means you hear sound louder -- or loud sounds hurt your ears is to wear ear protection.

>> We need to talk real quickly about ear protection. We have a call from a hunter that wants to know -- obviously you are concerned about hunter safety. You have to hear if someone yells "move" or "get out of there." Is there specific things to help the hunter?

>> Yes, there are. There are specific hunter ear plugs. They can be found at most supply stores for hunters. I don't know what those stores are, sports center stores. They allow sound to come through at a normal level so you can hear the other people talking and things like that. They kind of shut down sound at the impulse. If the gun shoots, you will hear the gun shoot but it cuts out a fair amount of the sound, the part that is damaging, the really loud.

>> You have some different kinds of ear plugs here, Kathy. Maybe you could --

>> I wanted to show you. This is the foam variety.

>> I will have you hold that up to your waist.

>> You can roll this up and if you roll it up really tight, you can actually put that in -- the tighter you roll it, the more protection you have. And so that -- thank you.

>> Those are fairly inexpensive. Those are good for what kinds of activities? A concert or are they not good enough?

>> They're great because they're easy and cheap and they're available. You should just --

>> Keep a wad of them in your purse.

>> Because they pack so tightly in the ear canal, they drop the decibels a lot. Most things around the home -- mowing the lawn, things like that, if you wore protection like that -- the problem is you don't hear much with them in there. They're not good for a situation where you are trying to hear.

>> Now this is the er-20.

>> Like layers.

>> It's a baffled effect. It's not like a swim plug. It is actually designed for music. And you can insert this plug as well. There's a little -- this is to pull it out with. This will reduce the decibel levels about 20 dB. You can still hear. It's a ready-fit plug. It's more readily available.

>> How much is something like this? This is $18-20.

>> Is that considered a musicians ear plug?

>> It's a high fidelity plug. If you need to hear conversation or music, you know. This is actually good for the bartender that can't hear in the club but needs to hear the drink calls but needs to have the sound reduced.

>> This time is flying by. I think you have certainly wet people's appetite. You have and the documentary has. We want to remind you about the web site. It's really incredible. We are just about out of time. Thank you so much. For all of you that called in, I tried to touch on all the basic topics but there's so much more. So many people out there that are really concerned about this. Pursue it please. We are out of time. I would like to thank our bank of experts for answering the phones. Cammy Bahmer, Roy Christensen, Ann Gouldie, Sue Howe, Dr. Mark Keller, Marsha Kushner, Tom Norris, Brian Rice, and Jody Spalding. *they made this part of the evening possible. For those of you who have not gotten your questions answered, they will stay on the phones for another 15 minutes. These are people who know what's going on so they can help you out. I would also like to thank the Commission for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing for the loan of the tty. NIDCD Clearinghouse for the material for the resource packet. And the Aearo Company for the donation of the ear plugs in the resource packets. We really appreciate all you have done for us. Finally, I want to thank you, our panelists, for being a part of the show and being a part of the documentary and "statewide" productions. Dr. Brookhouser of boys town, and Kenya Taylorof university of Nebraska at Kearney, and Kathy Peck of H.E.A.R. we thank you for joining us tonight. Don't let it stop here. Listen for answers. Good night.